Is Resentment Destroying Your Firefighter Marriage?

What does it actually take to keep a marriage strong when your partner runs into danger for a living? In this episode, licensed marriage and family therapist and fellow fire wife Rebecca Graves gets honest about the communication breakdowns, hidden resentment, and emotional walls that quietly unravel firefighter marriages — and shares the practical tools she uses with couples in her practice and in her own relationship. From the barometer check to the power of walking side by side, this conversation gives fire families real language and real strategies to start using today.

 Key Takeaways:

• Resentment is the slow poison of firefighter marriages — catching it early through a simple zero-to-ten scale can help couples course-correct before the damage runs deep.
• The machine-gun text habit is one of the most common communication mistakes fire wives make on shift days, and batching messages into a prioritized list is a proven way to reduce information overload.
• Kissing your partner first when you arrive and last before you leave is a simple daily habit that signals connection and models healthy relationship behavior for your kids.
• A barometer check — a quick text before your firefighter comes home — helps both partners show up with awareness and reduces the shock of walking into a hard emotional environment.
• Bilateral stimulation, like walking side by side, naturally calms the nervous system and makes it easier to have difficult conversations without defensiveness.
• Understanding your partner's love language is not optional in a firefighter marriage — it's one of the most direct ways to stop doing things that feel like love to you but land as meaningless to them.
• One of the biggest gaps in first responder mental health support is access — firefighters need low-barrier, stigma-free resources available outside the firehouse lobby where their captain might walk in.

Rebeca Graves
https://rebeccagravescounseling.com
https://aligncoachingandcounselingformen.com

Personality Type Test
https://www.humanmetrics.com/personality

5 love languages
https://5lovelanguages.com

Brene Brown
https://brenebrown.com

First Responder Sleep Recovery
https://www.firstrespondersleeprecovery.com/#home-section

First Responder Wellness
https://frhealth.com

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Transcript

Heather Arnzen (00:01.336)
Hello, Fire Family Collective. This is Heather. Today on the podcast, we are going to have a licensed marriage and family therapist with us. And we are going to talk about some deep conversations about topics that are maybe not talked about that much, but are pretty deep and pretty, are very common in this line of work. So Rebecca, could you introduce yourself?

Rebecca Graves (00:30.678)
Sure. Hi everyone. My name is Rebecca Graves and I am a licensed marriage and family therapist in Carlsbad, California. And I have been in practice about 10 years and I have been with or married to a firefighter for just over 10 years. And we've kind of done our careers together as far as building them. So I have from the ground up and my husband's now an engineer. Yes, I love my job.

Heather Arnzen (00:32.014)
What do you like on YouTube?

Rebecca Graves (01:00.662)
I love teaching and helping people understand. And I think that one of the biggest things missing from our world is the ability to talk about the hard things. And so I want to offer that space today to talk about the hard things, but also encourage wives or partners out there to reach out and find the ways to talk about hard things in this line of work.

Heather Arnzen (01:23.534)
Thank you so much for being here and being open to sharing this and sharing your knowledge to help other Firewives and Fire families. Because I think there's a big wall in this world where we don't really want to open up and talk about or have these conversations. So here is a space where people can feel acknowledged and not alone with these deeper things.

Rebecca Graves (01:43.372)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Graves (01:49.716)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (01:52.494)
Let's start off with something light. What is the most fire wife thing you've caught yourself doing?

Rebecca Graves (01:58.381)
Okay, light. So something light. Let's see, the most fire wife thing I've got myself doing. Probably, well, I tend to get overwhelmed on weekends when my husband's away. I have an eight and a five year old, almost four and a half, five year old. And I find myself getting a little bit of what I would call anticipatory anxiety of the weekend coming and what am I doing? I'm trying to pack all these things in and call all the fire wives that are on my same shift. And you know, it's all with good.

Heather Arnzen (02:08.728)
well.

Rebecca Graves (02:28.424)
heart to stay busy and keep connected but I think it's overwhelming sometimes so I guess that's light. Yes, yes, yes. Memorial Day is coming up and you know I'm already thinking about Monday and it's only Friday and then if I could

Heather Arnzen (02:34.646)
It's like the Sunday scaries, but instead it's the weekend scariest, it feels like.

Rebecca Graves (02:48.202)
Can I also add in something not so light that I catch myself doing as a fire wife? Okay. So when you asked me that question originally, the first thing I thought of is saying I hate my husband's job. And I think that that's a very authentic, real feeling. And as I even sometimes scroll through the...

Heather Arnzen (02:51.778)
go for it. Yes. Yes. Yes.

Heather Arnzen (03:01.442)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (03:10.732)
Southern California Facebook page I I see that often and so for me Not only saying it and holding it within and the thought that I hate his job I had to really start to change the narrative to I hate parts of his job This is the part I hate or makes me uncomfortable But stopping saying it and I even had an agreement with my husband years ago where I said I will stop saying to you I hate your job because I don't I just hate

Heather Arnzen (03:13.335)
Yeah.

Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (03:27.566)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (03:39.468)
It's it's instead of like having a whole umbrella of the job, it's identifying like those direct parts of the job that are extremely difficult.

Rebecca Graves (03:43.722)
Yeah.

Yeah.

And I found that when I was vulnerable with a couple of firewives I trusted, they said the same thing. They're like, man, if you knew how many times I said to my husband how much I hated his job. And so her and I made an agreement that every day we would text each other one thing we were grateful for in regards to their job. You know, my therapist,

Heather Arnzen (04:01.358)
Good.

Heather Arnzen (04:06.718)
Yeah, and to turn it from that negative that's so easy and so easy for us as humans to see and to kind of find those little sparks of joy in the positive parts.

Rebecca Graves (04:15.562)
Yeah.

Yeah, you know my my therapist is really big on teaching me that no wife really loves her husband's job despite what it is and That it's easy for our brain. What once latched on to something. We'll just find more evidence to prove that thing So there's there's that part of our brain that's going. you said you hated the job Let me show you all the reasons why you hate it. And so if you can rewire that to be looking for the parts you love or to find support in the

Heather Arnzen (04:41.752)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (04:50.055)
that you're hating. know hate is a really big word but I think it gets the point across.

Heather Arnzen (04:54.304)
Yeah. So I'm going to go through some questions that maybe are positive ways to help Firewives, Fire Families as a whole. So for like, as far as communication, what would healthy communication look like in this life of Firefighter, Firewife when they're on shift? And maybe what kind of communication should

Rebecca Graves (05:00.62)
Cool.

Heather Arnzen (05:22.136)
our wives as couples stop doing that is not the best to support them.

Rebecca Graves (05:25.1)
you

I smile and I laugh because if my husband was to watch this he's gonna be like, well you don't do that all the time. You know? Yeah, exactly. And I always tell people...

Heather Arnzen (05:32.896)
You should follow your own advice. But I'm sure you probably go back and reflect and are humble enough to be like, you know what, because none of us are perfect. You as a therapist, no one in this world is perfect. We all are going to make mistakes. Ideally, what would be good though?

Rebecca Graves (05:43.307)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Graves (05:46.804)
Yeah. Yep.

Yeah, no I love this question because I even teach people in my practice. Like oftentimes I'm trying to practice what I preach, you know, and...

Therapists are the worst clients. know, it's like we are the hardest. If you ever want to have a hard job, try to be a therapist to a therapist. But I would say I can still see the shifts and how things evolve. My kids are eight and five, eight and four and a half. It's a hard season. These Firewives with littles is very hard season. You start to step into different things that happen, perimenopause, the different things

Heather Arnzen (06:07.938)
Hehehehe

Heather Arnzen (06:19.106)
Any? Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (06:30.358)
that happen in a woman's life postpartum that are causing a whole different layer. So I want to like put that little disclaimer out that sometimes this isn't just about their job, it's about all the other layers underneath it.

Heather Arnzen (06:35.928)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (06:42.508)
Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (06:44.308)
Right? don't say I'm not a feminist. I am very supportive. I worked in the Marine Corps for six years with some of the top officials in the Marine Corps. I love working with men, but I think one of the things I love working with men the most is helping them to understand the dynamic of a woman because it's so layered. yeah. Uh-huh, and.

Heather Arnzen (07:04.078)
Yeah, yes, yeah, all the hormones, all the everything that we as women go through in life and even like having the baby and having all of those changes physically in our body.

Rebecca Graves (07:15.776)
Yes.

Yeah, and I have discussed this with a lot of my fire wife friends, but also with women in general, that we tend to drive the ship, you know, and the amount of stuff that's on our plate as women from cleaning out the refrigerator to making sure that the childcare is taken care of, to making sure the date night is done, to making sure we're working on our mental health, to making sure that we're also working. all, I mean, I don't know what the statistics is of working moms. I am a working mom, so that adds a different layer.

There's no judgment for those that aren't. Every job is hard as a wife and a mom. But to go back to your question, Heather, see I could talk about this forever.

Heather Arnzen (07:57.122)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (08:00.33)
You know, one thing, and I'll talk anecdotally about what has kind of helped me and my husband, or things that I'm working on. I have a tendency to take one thing that's stressing me out and just machine gun him with text messages about, you know, and yes, and I'm like.

Heather Arnzen (08:00.792)
Thank you.

Heather Arnzen (08:17.635)
Yeah. Amplify it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (08:22.668)
And he's, sure, on the other side like, well, you know, while he's about to go on a call or whatever. So I have had to really work, and it's still a work in practice to not do that to him when he's on shift. And I've had to set the same boundary as a therapist with him of like, you know, babe, I'm about to walk into a session. That was a really heavy thing to bring in. you know, for me, the biggest thing with communication, Heather, is communication.

Heather Arnzen (08:49.888)
Okay, okay. I love that. I love that. Yeah. Yeah. And I even you mentioning you when you're like the text to text to text to text, I feel like I've caught myself and I've kind of shifted on some of that. And I'm like wondering, like, maybe even like writing stuff down in like a notebook, you know, of like, this is what right now I want to send them all these messages, but like, okay, let me do all this and then come back and reflect with like an actual

Rebecca Graves (08:52.812)
part one, talk to each other. And if we, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (09:04.812)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (09:09.184)
Mm-hmm.

Yes.

Heather Arnzen (09:19.308)
Like, what do I really want to pull from that to have a conversation?

Rebecca Graves (09:22.348)
Perfect. Yes, put it in a note that you can hold. mean, my department is still on the Kelly, yes, yes, it's out of your head.

Heather Arnzen (09:29.048)
That way you're kind of releasing it mentally.

Rebecca Graves (09:34.133)
You know, even with the pressure we feel with social media and the instant gratification, me shooting him that text, did you reach out to so and so about this? Don't forget to call the doctor. And then I get mad at him because he doesn't do it, but it's like information overload. So him and I have devised a couple plans. One is what you said.

Heather Arnzen (09:42.286)
Thank you.

Heather Arnzen (09:48.664)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (09:57.133)
Thank

Rebecca Graves (09:58.401)
put the big bullet points of all the things that happen in the day or two days or three days that they're gone or four days, who knows, and go over them when he's present. Whether it's like, okay babe, I just got done with this training, I just got done, the BC just left, I got all my things done, what do you wanna tell me? Or I ask him at the end of his day when he's in a reflective time if he has to go over the text that I've sent about the to-dos. Because a lot of times mine are like,

Heather Arnzen (10:25.89)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (10:28.444)
shit, this thing came up. Hey Siri, can you tell Taylor, you know, blah, blah? It's like...

Heather Arnzen (10:29.952)
Yeah. Yeah. That's where my mind is. Mine is my to-dos. And it's almost because I build up resentment of like, he wasn't able to get things done while he was off shift or something at the house needs to happen or the last three times he was off. He didn't do this thing that I told him to do or whatever. And then it's like, that's where I'm like, I almost catch myself. Why didn't you do this before you left? You need to come home and do it right when he...

Rebecca Graves (10:58.208)
Well...

Heather Arnzen (10:59.682)
But I've caught myself in that of, OK, wait a second. Just make the to-do list and prioritize. For me, that's my, I'm like, OK, I really need you to do this when you come home. It would mean a lot for you to do this. It's frustrating me, and I'm building up resentment and kind of prioritizing.

Rebecca Graves (11:18.604)
I mean and we know that resentment is the absolute poison of relationships and it does build and so if we had a Mathematical equation it's lack of communication plus underlying resentment equals destruction and

Heather Arnzen (11:27.555)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (11:42.83)
How, how, how I know I've gotten to a point where I can actually identify, but I know previously in my life, like there, I would just build up the resentment. How do we get to a point of recognizing, like what are some things that we can recognize within ourselves that we're feeling resentment? So we can take agency and like open up the communication.

Rebecca Graves (12:01.313)
Yeah, this is a great question. Yeah.

This is such a great question, Heather, because it's two parts. I can coach women till I'm blue in the face how to give a message to their partner. Unfortunately, oftentimes the other side is very shut down because of lack of sleep, because of the inability to connect to feelings, because of unprocessed trauma, because their mom used to do this. There's so much, and I don't want to overwhelm everybody and make everybody feel like they're screwed. However,

Heather Arnzen (12:17.219)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (12:25.218)
Okay.

Heather Arnzen (12:36.462)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (12:39.466)
I teach my patients always a scale, zero to 10. Zero being everything's cruising, I wanna have sex with you, I wanna kiss you when you walk in the door, hey, let's go have lunch. Two.

get the fuck out of my face, and excuse my language, like, you know, and that point is obviously a place of really hard, so if you can start to catch yourself, as the ships start to sail, if we can do something to come back together, but the couple has to find what this is. Does that make sense? Is it a walk?

Heather Arnzen (12:56.856)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (13:14.626)
Okay, yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (13:17.65)
Is it a lunch? Is it having sex? Is it, you know, for men, men want to have sex to connect. Women want to connect before we have sex. So it's like, you know, so. Yeah, yeah, so. I think if all of us took a moment and really sat down presently, you would know if you're resentful or not. But because we're spinning our wheels at an incredible rate, always.

Heather Arnzen (13:27.303)
Yeah, it doesn't, if you don't have that connection, we're not, you know, we don't want that. Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (13:44.152)
I was gonna say like you're on social media scrolling, distracting yourself, doing, trying to catch up with everything with life, take our kid to whatever, be the taxi driver, that it's hard for us to catch ourselves into like pausing and just being present for a few minutes.

Rebecca Graves (13:47.18)
Get rid of your phone. Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (13:58.625)
I don't think

Yeah, yeah, most of the women I know, I've noticed a big, big shift in the last couple of years and, you know, let's blame COVID because we can blame COVID on most things. But I've noticed that women have really walled off their emotions, that we used to be these nurturing species that could emote, that could be vulnerable. And I've noticed that and I'm not only speaking for FireWorld, but even like the the people around me

Heather Arnzen (14:15.79)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (14:30.904)
So yeah, general, general, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (14:31.31)
at my community level. Yeah, it's like women are more proud of being angry and and may I say stone-cold than they do pride themselves in connection and so if our ultimate goal is to connect as humans we've lost a bit of that so definitely finding one two three people.

Heather Arnzen (14:42.701)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (14:52.994)
And that's not to like, we're not blaming the individuals in this. It's just kind of how society is right now, right?

Rebecca Graves (14:58.89)
Yes. How do you have time to cry? How do you have time to commiserate when you have no...

Heather Arnzen (15:05.195)
Well, and then it's also even going back to that social media, like we're seeing everyone's perfect, the highlight reel of everyone. And it's like, as maybe something tough is happening in your life and you're like, wait a second, like I don't even want to address these emotions. I'm just gonna almost like keep digging deeper.

Rebecca Graves (15:12.798)
Yes.

Rebecca Graves (15:17.793)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (15:26.124)
Yep, and who, know, again, if I pan back, remember I'm a therapist, so I have this therapist hat on. Most these people that are women, since we're talking about it, that are walled off, and even men, have a story from their childhood of not being safe to speak, not being safe to cry, feeling like if I showed my emotions I got hurt. And so all of that blends into this perfect pot, oh and I haven't seen my husband in two days. You know, it's like.

Heather Arnzen (15:40.398)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (15:47.288)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (15:54.457)
Well, I want to talk about all this stuff, but I haven't seen them and I want to keep it light. It's finding a balance. It's absolutely finding a balance. And you know, it could be, okay, let's get back to basics, Heather. You walk in the door.

Heather Arnzen (16:05.218)
Okay, no, we're good. Yeah, I'm like, that irony though, in all of this is like my little notes of like things I want to talk to you. I'm like, you're touching on that one, you're touching on that one. We're like going through all of them. So I love this.

Rebecca Graves (16:14.668)
Good, yeah. Okay, okay. know, basics, this is what I teach so many couples. First thing, do you walk in the door and first kiss your wife? Or do you walk in the door and kiss your dog and then kiss your kids and then go to the bathroom? First thing we do as a couple is kiss your partner. First thing you do. And the last thing you do before you leave is kiss your partner, right?

Heather Arnzen (16:27.991)
Okay.

Heather Arnzen (16:33.676)
Yeah.

Okay.

Heather Arnzen (16:42.432)
Okay, okay. that's like, and that kind of like just establishes that that's like something important and then that connection is there and will be there. Yeah. And it's just a simple way that maybe we overlook. Okay, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (16:43.5)
That's an easy, simple thing that you can start doing. Uh-huh.

Rebecca Graves (16:53.246)
You matter to me. I see you. And I know one thing that my husband and struggled.

Rebecca Graves (17:04.644)
And it's a modeling to our children. Tons of people out there that I follow talk about the importance of a husband modeling to his children his love and respect for his wife. Now, a husband has to love and respect his wife and it's very hard to hug a porcupine. So there has to be this balance of him. I know one thing that stresses my husband out is what am I gonna get when I come home?

Heather Arnzen (17:19.36)
I love that, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (17:34.701)
Is my wife gonna be overwhelmed? Is she gonna be bitchy? Are my kids gonna be a disaster? So in the really hard times, we do a barometer check.

Heather Arnzen (17:34.702)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (17:44.629)
So he can text me and be like, barometer check, and I go, I'm in a really bad mood, and it's not you, but, Or I say, can't wait to see you, you know? And vice versa, he could be coming off a sleepless night and he got wrecked and this homeless person kept him up for bullshit reasons or whatever it is, and he can let me know, I'm coming in with this, it's not you, I just need a minute.

Heather Arnzen (17:44.717)
Okay.

Heather Arnzen (17:56.077)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (18:04.075)
Yeah, yeah.

Heather Arnzen (18:09.195)
Yeah. Yeah, I feel like that's something me and my husband have learned too. And I like, feel like it's 50 50 on who initiates of like that shift of when he is coming home of where are you at? How was your shift and me being like, where am I at? I need I need like sometimes it'll be I'm so overwhelmed take the kids for an hour when you get home or like he had a rough shift you want.

you need a nap, should we go for a walk? Like that's one of the things where it's like if we're both struggling, we're just like, we need to go for a walk. We can just get that reconnection as like in the processing of the bilateral simulation with the walking. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. Yeah. And we just take the kids, the kids ride their bikes and we walk and talk and kind of process.

Rebecca Graves (18:43.262)
Yes. So.

Wow good for you look at you, so are you're talking about walk together? Yeah, yeah

Rebecca Graves (19:02.89)
leave the kids at home. I'm just kidding if you can. I know you can't.

Heather Arnzen (19:05.25)
Our kids are, I will say, yeah, no, our kids are our co-older ones ride their bikes and they go together and they're in front of us. And then our youngest or three year old, he'll either be riding his little Strider right in front of us or in a stroller. And he just, he's the easiest kid to walk. He loves to walk. he, he's easy.

Rebecca Graves (19:11.914)
That's great. That's great.

Rebecca Graves (19:19.83)
Hmm.

Yeah, so let me explain the bilateral stimulation for those that don't know or like tuning in for the first time if you will. So what Heather is speaking to is the idea of using both sides of the brain at the same time to calm our nervous system. So right brain, right hemisphere of the brain is where all your emotions are and all your feelings and senses and the left side of your, the left hemisphere of your brain is all your logic. So all the things that stress you out, it's very future focused

and passed in the right hemisphere of stay and play. So when you're outside walking, you're not only using both sides of the brain at the same time, you know, I model this or anything that's using both sides of the brain at the same time, or it's very right brain dominant when you're outside walking because you're seeing things, you're hearing things, you're feeling the wind. And so our nervous system can naturally calm a little bit to have the hard conversation.

Heather Arnzen (20:13.774)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (20:24.258)
Yeah, that's like exactly.

Rebecca Graves (20:24.674)
Make sense? The other thing that's really important, I'll just say this really quick, and I love Mel Robbins, and she talks about the, I think she calls it the frontal modulation of the brain. So if you're somewhere and you're moving forward, if you wanna have a good conversation, my girlfriend just called me and wanted to have this heavy conversation with her 10 year old and said, I'm gonna go get her a Starbucks. And I said, get her that Starbucks, put her in your car, turn on some music, and drive.

Heather Arnzen (20:45.55)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (20:50.794)
That's what's gonna make them open up.

Heather Arnzen (20:54.2)
That sense. makes a lot of sense. For us too, it's like getting a change of scenery of like just being at home and having tough conversations or processing tough days or situations from him with frustrations at work or me with frustrations at home. It's hard for us to just be in the home and have these conversations. Whereas when we're out walking, moving, it's just easier for us to open up and...

Rebecca Graves (20:55.328)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (20:59.936)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Graves (21:05.899)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (21:20.748)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (21:22.594)
talk and be in a different, not beholding the tougher conversations in our home where our home is our safe place still to come back to.

Rebecca Graves (21:29.096)
Mm-hmm. Yeah, yeah. It's so hard to stay the course in marriage sometimes when you have so many things coming in the way. But our slogan, if you will, in my field is that couples come in two years too late.

And I want people to start being more proactive versus reactive. It is so much easier and more fun as you can imagine to coach a couple that doesn't have a lot of shit, that just wants to learn how to, and then you could even call it coaching. Get your husband in that way. Yeah, yeah.

Heather Arnzen (21:45.293)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (22:00.448)
and keep it, keep it. It's almost like, like you were saying the boat, like it's easier to have that boat that's solid and help them like, okay, if this happens, this is how you repair this versus like about a million holes and it's sinking and it's like, quick, that, fix that hole, then fix this, you know? Like if you start with that fresh boat, it's how do you like, when this comes up, this is how you address it, I feel like.

Rebecca Graves (22:12.436)
Yes. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (22:27.702)
Well, and it makes me think about the thought, and I think this is something that is really taboo, but I want to bring up, which is adultery. Because I found a lot more in my office in the last couple years for whatever reason. But Fire World has this unfortunate, what's that word I'm looking for? 

Label, okay there we go. You can start recording again too. So the unfortunate label of firefighters cheat and there's all these cute nurses and you're not wearing your wedding ring. So, yeah go ahead. Yeah, yeah.

Heather Arnzen (23:05.208)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (23:11.054)
And it's even you're away from home for how many days and you're not having those intimates that intimacy during those moments or.

Rebecca Graves (23:22.186)
Yeah, and my whole point of sharing that is, you know, I mean, we can talk about, again, this topic forever, but I always ask, let's just say for ease of conversation, the husband is the one that cheated and the woman's, what we call the betrayed. So there's the betrayer and the betrayed. That's the lingo we use now. So I always ask my wives or the betrayed in this story.

Heather Arnzen (23:27.31)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (23:36.749)
Okay.

Heather Arnzen (23:40.344)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (23:48.415)
Where did you see yourself missing the mark? You don't deserve this. I'm not saying anybody deserves this, but were you showing up? Were you trying to do the work? What was missing along the way? And just own their part. I need the husband owned his too. And I can't remember why this came to my mind, but this is a topic that I think a lot of the women that I've not necessarily known, because I don't actually, we're really lucky. I haven't heard this a lot in my world, in my department, but

Heather Arnzen (23:52.142)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (24:02.648)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (24:18.317)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (24:18.518)
I think sometimes there's this lack of connection that leads to this drive in our brain, again, of trying to find all the things we're disconnecting from and then it goes to the worst possible scenario. talking about your insecurities, getting opportunities to talk about the ways that you need to connect.

Heather Arnzen (24:29.634)
Yeah.

You're welcome, sir.

Rebecca Graves (24:37.684)
And even if that's scheduling it, on Friday, well we don't always have Fridays off, right? It's like, okay, well I see that we have this Friday off. Let's talk about the three things that were hard this week, and then let's wrap up with the three things that worked really well, and the three things I wanna work on next week. And just continue to stay connected. Because my whole point was that affairs usually come at the end of the road, you know, so let's catch things. No.

Heather Arnzen (24:38.484)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (24:55.128)
I love that.

Heather Arnzen (25:02.42)
Yeah, it's not normally at the beginning. There's a lot of things that lead up to what has happened in that situation. What are some ways that couples can share intimacy that aren't necessarily sexual or physical? What are other ways to build that intimacy?

Rebecca Graves (25:08.426)
Yep.

Rebecca Graves (25:12.18)
Yeah. Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (25:24.14)
Yeah So the first thing that comes to mind is to have fun You know my husband I got a trailer and one of the things that it showed me camping is what a good team we are and So finding things that feel like team building experiences you got this he's got his lane I got mine at the end we have this huge production that just feels like yeah, whoa high five, you know

Heather Arnzen (25:49.258)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (25:50.827)
The other thing that is really important to build intimacy is exercise. Exercising together, we call it sexercise. Have you ever heard of the term sexercise? Yeah, so it's like you're building your endorphins, you're high-fiving each other, you're working out, you're proud of each other, and that can lead to obviously sex, but it can also lead to that building of intimacy.

Heather Arnzen (25:58.296)
No, no.

Heather Arnzen (26:09.794)
Yeah, two, yeah. And it gives your, does it give your body a similar like almost release because you're physically moving, you're lifting the heavy weights, the hormones that are pumping through your body, is it kind of similar?

Rebecca Graves (26:19.628)
Yeah, I mean...

Rebecca Graves (26:26.26)
Yeah, it is similar because it's also the addition of the pride you feel or you see your husband proud of you. You see him being like, yeah, you know, anything like that is gonna make you feel excited, right? It's gonna make you feel connected and...

Heather Arnzen (26:41.719)
Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (26:46.988)
Yeah, so I think that's one another really important way to build intimacy is by is that that was the question, right? How do you build in to see outside of sex? I would say Whoo, and this is a hard one, but being vulnerable, know, bernay brown talks a lot about being vulnerable and the gifts that come in it But most the women I see are like I don't got time to be vulnerable and he's never here to see it so they cry alone they

Heather Arnzen (26:53.206)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (27:11.256)
here.

Rebecca Graves (27:15.98)
you know, they're in survival mode all the time. So I would say really getting down to these beautiful basics of getting to know each other again.

Heather Arnzen (27:25.454)
I love that. I love how you're saying that too. Like, I feel like that's such, that's so important is just getting the idea of getting back to the basics. I feel like we get so like going down our paths of life and there's so much coming at us and coming at us differently and coming at us, whether it's a woman hormonally or with the kids, with working, if you're a working mom, like there's so much and it's so important to just kind of get that reconnection.

Rebecca Graves (27:34.592)
the kissing.

Rebecca Graves (27:54.539)
You know, the other thing that I'm gonna throw out that's so old but so good is the five love languages. You know, every couple in my office I talk about that. And do the little quiz, Google the little quiz, see if it fits for you, and then helping your partner. So when your husband comes in the door and he smacks your ass and your love language is words of encouragement, that does nothing for you. That probably irritates you versus, babe, thank you for doing all the things you did while I was gone.

Heather Arnzen (28:01.794)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (28:06.922)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (28:19.18)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (28:24.574)
you know, or vice versa. If you're not spending 15, 30 minutes of quality time with your husband that's been gone, but you're picking up his laundry and doing all these things, you're not finding what works. So find what works for you.

Heather Arnzen (28:25.27)
Yeah. Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (28:36.394)
Yeah. And it's almost, even if it's like something that doesn't work as like, say it's the words of affirmation or words of encouragement type of thing, as like, if like for me, like say I, I'm like, why? That means nothing for me, but it is important to kind of take a step back and almost respect that that's for someone else. Like that if you want to build this relationship, you have to sacrifice a little, right? And you're not.

Rebecca Graves (28:57.376)
Mm-hmm.

Heather Arnzen (29:03.938)
Maybe words of encouragement don't work for me, but I know it's going to help him. Like I can say a couple of nice things because I care about this relationship, you know, like.

Rebecca Graves (29:10.73)
Yeah, mean, come on. Yeah, the masculine, they want to know they're doing a good job. Like it is in their DNA to feel like they provide for their family, to feel like they're being safe and supported. Yes.

Heather Arnzen (29:19.309)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (29:24.418)
I feel like we also get so lost of I want it to be my way. I want you to do things my way. My way is the right way. Do it this way. This is how things should be done or what, you know, where it's like we can all kind of take a step back and be like, we are both separate humans, but like this relationship as a whole connected is this is how like these are things that need to happen for the relationship.

Rebecca Graves (29:35.732)
Yeah, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (29:49.389)
Absolutely. And I, you know, we'll probably have to have another segment, but for me, yeah, yeah, I'm down, I'm down.

Heather Arnzen (29:55.212)
Yeah, I know. like, feel like we could do probably a bunch. We could do a couple like quarterly or something to go deeper into different topics.

Rebecca Graves (30:03.112)
Absolutely and and maybe people that are listening if there's something that really resonated like shoot off an email or Facebook or whatever to Heather and ask me more questions, but You know, I really think the idea of the ship or the suitcase or whatever It is can be very helpful and what I mean is when you're asking your husband to get this thing done And he doesn't do it. It's just adding to this load that is getting bigger and bigger and bigger and so

Heather Arnzen (30:08.256)
Yeah, yeah, let us know.

Rebecca Graves (30:33.006)
So if you can find a way Heather to go, okay babe, these are on my A list, these are on my B list. Do you give me permission to write them on the whiteboard? So when you walk in tomorrow and I'm spinning around, you know there's just two things that are really important.

Heather Arnzen (30:40.428)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (30:48.598)
Yes, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (30:50.692)
And I mean, I'm looking at our whiteboard right now because I was like, my husband's very open and thank God to a honey-do list. So I just like put everything down that I want and then him and I negotiate or talk about, these ones are important, that doesn't matter, I just, was in my head, right? But again, it's communication.

Heather Arnzen (30:53.867)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (30:58.69)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It is. It's the, comes down to the communication aspect of being able to have healthy communication with each other. think a lot of it too, with like me personally, is I had to learn how to not take things personal. Like I had to learn and especially for him too, like with my husband.

Rebecca Graves (31:20.81)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (31:26.004)
Mmm.

Heather Arnzen (31:30.08)
I'd be so stressed out with things and he'd think it's because of him. I'm like, it's not, has nothing to do with you, dude. Like it does not. I'm like, I just need the support. And like, I feel like that's something that has shifted like that open communication though, that we are able to healthily, I don't know if that's the word. I think, I don't know, but healthily, in a healthy way, we can have this conversation of, hey, like,

Rebecca Graves (31:30.56)
Yep.

Rebecca Graves (31:36.972)
Yeah, yeah, yep. Yes.

Rebecca Graves (31:49.196)
I think that sounds good to me. Healthily, healthily, in a healthy way.

Heather Arnzen (31:58.868)
I'm not like, hey, I'm not mad at you. I am very stressed right now. Here's what's going on. Here's what I need help with. And then he can show up and be there versus it causing some type of a conflict where he thinks I'm mad at him. I think he's mad at me now. And it's just this, it goes down into like just this negative spiral, you know?

Rebecca Graves (32:07.038)
Yes, yes.

Rebecca Graves (32:22.284)
I'm smiling because one of the things I teach couples the most is disclaimers. Everything is, go into every hard conversation with a disclaimer. This, babe, this is not about you. I love you so much, but this is where I'm frustrated at. More than likely they're gonna, no, especially men. Mm-mm.

Heather Arnzen (32:27.63)
Listen.

Heather Arnzen (32:37.656)
well and i don't have a mind readers either like that was another thing that like you should know that now he he's not going to keep got a million other things going on and that's okay like

Rebecca Graves (32:48.64)
There's like one couple that stands out, but for the most part, generally speaking, a woman is the emotional one and the man is the logical one. So they oftentimes don't understand our emotion and we understand, and oftentimes we are so frustrated at their logic or like that they can't, that we are feeling what they're feeling. They don't even know they're feeling it. My husband cannot stand when I tell him how he's feeling. Well, I wouldn't want to be told either, but I'm like, but you are feeling that way.

Heather Arnzen (33:08.174)
Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (33:18.574)
You know, but then so I teach a lot of couples code words So if you and your husband are getting to that point in absolute destruction you say pineapple

And that means gloves are off, you're gonna walk away, he's gonna walk away. However, the key is, and I taught a lot of my couples in the Marine Corps this, and even a lot of the officers that I'd work with in regards to their Marines. And they don't have to say pineapple to the corporal, but they can think, this isn't going well, I'm gonna say some I don't mean. And as soon as you say that, if the couple can walk away for 15, 30, half an hour, and come back and try it again.

Heather Arnzen (33:33.784)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (33:45.815)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (33:58.861)
My family and I have a rule called, we... Always, that is an absolute law because if you are not trying to start over, we have a game in my, I don't know it's a game, but we have a rule in our family of starting over and that you can just like, can I start again, mommy? Absolutely, you can always start over and try it again. Perfect, yeah.

Heather Arnzen (33:59.918)
The idea of always coming back to it, right?

Heather Arnzen (34:09.71)
You

Heather Arnzen (34:24.386)
We call them do-overs. We call them do-overs. Can I have a do-over?

Rebecca Graves (34:29.388)
Yeah, yeah. I think it goes back to, oh go ahead, you asked me. Go, go, I was just gonna say that, you know, something that's really standing out to me is the thought of, you know.

Heather Arnzen (34:34.517)
I want to hear.

Rebecca Graves (34:43.198)
men and women being different, men being logic, men being emotional, and this really amazing couple stands out in the Marine Corps that I worked with. And they were just butting heads all the time. And I had them do this thing called the Myers-Briggs, which people have probably heard of, but I do it in something called the Human Metrics. I can put the link on the podcast. And what came out was their personality type. She was a feeler, he was a thinker.

Heather Arnzen (35:03.148)
Okay.

Rebecca Graves (35:08.874)
And I'm like, you guys should go for a walk. And it stressed him out. And so then I realized she wants to go for a walk to just be. He wants to know the time, the route, when they're gonna get back, and what they're gonna talk about. And as soon as I gave him that game plan, he was cool. He was like, all right, I got 30 minutes. We're gonna go up and then left and around the block this way, and this is the topic at hand. So you have to know who your partner is.

Heather Arnzen (35:17.486)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (35:27.98)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (35:33.302)
Yeah. Yeah, that makes it, that makes a lot of sense of like, and you have to know yourself too. So you can ask, right. For those specific things. And it's almost discovering who we are ourselves underneath it all and being able to ask, communicate and talk and say, I need this. This is what I need in these situations. And then it's the opportunity of the opposite way of being.

Rebecca Graves (35:41.164)
Mm-hmm.

Rebecca Graves (35:45.26)
Yes.

Rebecca Graves (35:53.206)
Get to know yourself.

Yep. And the person you married,

Heather Arnzen (36:01.69)
willing enough to say, know what, maybe I don't like that, I do. Maybe it would help our relationship as a whole to say what route we're going, what I plan on, you know, that kind of stuff.

Rebecca Graves (36:15.446)
Absolutely. And then the woman not getting frustrated but being okay with that's what he needs.

Heather Arnzen (36:24.258)
Yeah. let's go. I feel like we could talk and talk and talk and talk for days about a lot of different things. Let's talk about one more topic. I'm going to go right here of what is lacking in departments with mental health, all of this support relationship. What is lacking? What ideally could departments do better?

Rebecca Graves (36:32.394)
Hehehe

Okay, give it to me.

Okay, so

Rebecca Graves (36:52.98)
Okay, so I'm gonna answer this like very generally, if you will, but I would say the biggest...

Heather Arnzen (36:59.495)
Okay, yeah, because we could probably do a whole episode on Deep Down.

Rebecca Graves (37:03.404)
Yes, absolutely. would say that the big, yeah. And I think this is kind of a theme in probably most places. So maybe not just in our world, but I would say probably one of the biggest things lacking in my opinion is the mental health support for our firefighters. And almost since COVID, it's like...

Heather Arnzen (37:07.928)
And I'll you soon.

Rebecca Graves (37:28.298)
the ability for them to access it and the fear they have from accessing it. There used to be peer supports and all these things and then it's just kind of drifted away. Everything, COVID really brought this, and I'm sorry to bring up COVID a couple times, but I, as a therapist, see this, that it really made things kind of go away. So an EAP of sorts. Do you know what an EAP is? So, god, what does it stand for? It stands for...

Heather Arnzen (37:43.128)
Yeah. Yeah.

Yeah. Some sort of no. What is that?

Rebecca Graves (37:57.901)
I can't think of what it's standing for but it's basically like the the resources that are available to people in the firefighter for mental health For different places that you don't have to go through insurance. You don't have to go find someone out of pocket They offer you the support Yeah, usually it's through the department so we had an EAP and I'm sorry to say I don't know if we still do but we had a really great one that you could get six to twelve sessions The hard thing is is that they're sitting in the lobby and in comes your captain

Heather Arnzen (38:03.437)
Okay.

Heather Arnzen (38:09.858)
Yeah. And it's sort of like the department basically.

Heather Arnzen (38:27.586)
Yeah. Do you see like a shift in the department itself of like how the firefighters interact with each other over the mental health? Like do you think it's something that like it's like firefighters don't feel open enough to communicate?

Rebecca Graves (38:28.14)
And so finding really, really neat ways, I just met a new therapist that I'm actually.

Rebecca Graves (38:51.148)
you

I mean, just speaking personally, my husband's on this crew right now that I love because they talk about stuff. And I get to hear the way these guys talk about real life stuff. And then you don't feel like you're doing this thing alone or finding one person. But as a mental health professional, if we can give our guys these resources to know they have somewhere to go after they saw the little kid die, after they saw the woman,

Heather Arnzen (38:59.169)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (39:03.532)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (39:22.03)
channel.

Heather Arnzen (39:22.658)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (39:22.738)
have a heart attack, anything that we can do to support them. And I know that they do like a debrief after and stuff like that, but mental health support. The other thing that's really important that I think has been lost in the shuffle since COVID is community. know, finding things and I'm just as responsible. I haven't like put myself out there to the people in my group and been like, hey, do you guys want to get together and do yoga again? We used to do like yoga and

Heather Arnzen (39:30.892)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (39:50.37)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (39:52.575)
you know, all these things together and it's just, it's, we've lost it. We've lost the importance of.

Heather Arnzen (39:57.112)
Do you think, I, when I, when I think about it, like, I am like very, I'm on social media, but I'm also anti-social media as much as I'm on it. But like this idea of like social media has replaced our need, like our idea of the need for connection when in reality we really do need that connection and are lacking it because we're like, well we saw so and so and they did this and we're keeping up with each other on social media, but we're not having that deeper connection.

Rebecca Graves (40:07.178)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (40:26.572)
I mean overall yes, I think everybody needs to throw their phone away and going back to the you know wait

Heather Arnzen (40:29.452)
Yeah. Yeah. I was literally talking to my husband yesterday, like, maybe we should just get dumb phones. We should get dumb phones. We check our email and like, we're actually like talking about maybe just debating on going to dumb phones instead of smartphones.

Rebecca Graves (40:37.282)
yeah, my client just got one. Yep.

Rebecca Graves (40:45.118)
yeah, I I've been talking about putting a basket by my front door for months to put our phones in. Because my son just said to me the other day, you're on your phone way too much, Mommy. And I'm not even on social media that much. I'm texting people back. I'm ordering on Amazon. I'm, you know.

Heather Arnzen (40:51.98)
Yeah.

Heather Arnzen (41:02.284)
Yeah, no, it hit me hard last this last week. My three year old, my phone, I didn't have it like on me at all. All day I've been like trying to not have it on me. And my three year old one of the days he dropped me my phone was like, here mommy, here's your phone. Like from the other room and I was like, he knows like this is attached to me. Yeah, and I'm like, this is like bad. Like I need to stop.

Rebecca Graves (41:16.288)
Yeah.

You want it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, so everything is awareness.

Heather Arnzen (41:27.628)
Yes, yeah.

Rebecca Graves (41:28.032)
but we can take back control. We can, you know? And just, wanna wrap up the question of the community loss. I have found that for me what works is one-on-ones and also like, you know, a couple women together. But, and I've noticed like that's kinda how it is. Like you have these little tribes within the big tribe. But if we can offer two events a year that are for the entire tribe, not of men and women.

Two for the women, the women collective get together and we used to do macrame or whatever the heck you want to do. And then two for the majority of the fire. We have a very good group of guys that try to put on the big events, but I'm talking about like, let's just get together and eat. That's what they used to do in the old days. They broke bread. So I think that's the other thing that really needs to be beefed up. And I have a couple others, but I'll hold it off to that now.

Heather Arnzen (42:19.596)
Yeah, I think we'll definitely have you back at some point because I feel like there's a lot more we could dive deeper onto and I'm so interested in some of these topics and diving deeper and providing support for others. I know if listeners, if you're not part of the Fire Family Collective, we would love to have you join there and have that our community there and resources there. We will also provide some resources in the show notes.

Rebecca Graves (42:24.46)
I love that.

Rebecca Graves (42:30.342)
yay. Yeah. Awesome.

Heather Arnzen (42:49.206)
And I'm going to have some rapid fire questions before we close. But do you have any other resources that you would like to provide? Or for listeners, how can they connect with you?

Rebecca Graves (42:52.808)
Okay, okay.

Rebecca Graves (43:01.514)
So, you know, was sharing with you earlier that this is probably one of the best resources I've ever heard of. The Fire Family Collective and even this podcast and the Facebook page, as much as we all like, you know, don't like Facebook, there is a great resource there. However, as soon as the commiserations starts to get to a negative level, you have to sign off. I want it, I want it, not that we can't talk about the hard things, but I think you have to be aware enough to go, now I'm getting into trigger.

hashtag triggered mode, but resources wise, I think this is one of the best ones out there. know, nobody understands Fire World unless you're in fire. So if you can find somebody to talk to, whether that's a therapist or a friend or, you know, listen to a podcast, but most of it goes back to self-awareness, right? The other thing that I want to highlight is the...

Heather Arnzen (43:33.228)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (43:56.141)
And you can probably add this but you were sharing with me about the woman that puts on the sleep training or the sleep something Yeah, so that one really stood out to me as like cool And and okay, I'm gonna say this last thing is resource get to know yourself You don't need a therapist for that You don't need a book a podcast all these ways that we're trying to fill this system. You know who you are

Heather Arnzen (44:02.348)
Yeah, my first responder is sleep recovery.

Rebecca Graves (44:23.38)
and hopefully your partner knows who you are. And so coming back home is number one.

Heather Arnzen (44:30.446)
I that.

Rebecca Graves (44:30.75)
And then as far as I go, I have a couple websites I'll have you put in the show notes. One of is predominantly for everyone. The other one is for men. And it's directed specifically for men because we know that men have a hard time talking. And I've worked with lot of athletes and again, military people and executives. And I find that if men can just understand how to transition from firefighter to father to husband, he's way ahead of the game.

Heather Arnzen (44:40.75)
Okay.

Heather Arnzen (45:01.368)
That's amazing. Yeah, that does.

Rebecca Graves (45:01.952)
Make sense? Yeah. And I don't know if this is the time, but something I love to do is speak and just teach. I taught at a community college for years. When I worked in the Marine Corps, I taught battalions of Marines how to de-stress. But whatever the topic is, I really love to come and just share easy, simple ways to just feel better.

Heather Arnzen (45:26.434)
Great. That's amazing. Yeah. We'll make sure to include all those in the show notes. And before we go, I'm going to shoot off some rapid fire closing questions. One relationship habit that everyone should start.

Rebecca Graves (45:27.542)
Yeah.

Rebecca Graves (45:31.796)
Awesome. Okay. Drill me. Okay.

Rebecca Graves (45:40.396)
I will I already said the kiss first thing and last thing before you go and One can you ask it one more time?

Heather Arnzen (45:47.758)
One relationship habit everyone should start

Rebecca Graves (45:51.725)
Let's see here. I just want to say the like kiss first thing, kiss last thing. Your person is the only person that you kiss, I hope. So give, we always kiss before we go to bed. We kiss first thing in the morning. We kiss before we leave and we kiss when we come in the door.

Heather Arnzen (46:02.062)
Hahaha

Heather Arnzen (46:24.822)
Okay, one relationship habit everyone should start Sorry, one relationship habit everyone should stop.

Rebecca Graves (46:36.906)
Mmm. Silent treatments.

Heather Arnzen (46:41.919)
one thing every fire wife needs.

Rebecca Graves (46:46.444)
to know they're not alone.

Heather Arnzen (46:49.364)
One thing every firefighter needs.

Rebecca Graves (46:53.804)
to know that they're supported in their work.

Heather Arnzen (46:57.909)
One thing couples need more of.

Rebecca Graves (47:01.334)
connection time, one-on-one time, date nights, coaching, giggling, fun.

Heather Arnzen (47:05.102)
And that's.

fell in the blank. Fire Life has taught me.

Rebecca Graves (47:12.556)
Fire life has taught me I can do this. I can be a badass.

Heather Arnzen (47:16.174)
you

Heather Arnzen (47:22.198)
love feels like.

Rebecca Graves (47:25.772)
Love, love feels like, oh that's a one. Love feels like looking each other's eyes, connecting, feeling each other.

Heather Arnzen (47:27.746)
Yes.

Heather Arnzen (47:39.956)
Marriage is less about blank and more about blank.

Rebecca Graves (47:44.702)
Marriage is less about having all the things that you need, keeping up with the Joneses, and more about knowing that you pick your partner to go through the hardest things you'll ever go through in your life.

Heather Arnzen (47:57.678)
And one thing you want listeners to remember.

Rebecca Graves (48:02.7)
I think the thing I want people to know the most is that one, you're not alone, that we're all in this together. And there was this idea of tribes that used to happen that we don't have a scarcity mindset anymore, even though our brain tells us we do. We don't have to battle each other to win. And I'm talking about husband to wife and wife to wife to wife to wife to wife, that we are all in this together.

And if we can start being more vulnerable with women, we will find that we can be more supportive to our husbands.

Heather Arnzen (48:35.458)
I love that. Thank you so much for joining us today. I'm so ready to have another conversation in future. We will definitely have you back. And thank you for joining us. Listeners, thank you for joining us on the Fire Family Collective. We will include as many resources as we can in the show notes. And I hope everyone has a great day.

Rebecca Graves (48:37.898)
You're welcome. This was so fun. Yay! Good. Awesome.

You're welcome.

Rebecca Graves (48:53.836)
you

Heather Arnzen (48:58.702)
Bye.

Rebecca Graves (48:59.063)
Thank you.