Why Do Firefighter Marriages Need a Yearly Check-In?

Every firefighter marriage runs on borrowed sleep, unpredictable shifts, and a stress threshold that keeps climbing the longer someone stays in the fire service. In this episode Alex sits down with Heath Holland, a licensed clinical social worker who is also a full time firefighter in the DFW area, for an unusually direct conversation about what actually keeps a fire marriage healthy. Heath and his wife Liz have built six years of marriage entirely inside the fire service, and he brings both a counselor's toolkit and a firefighter's lived experience to questions most couples never think to ask until something breaks. From yearly marriage check ins to the exact phrase that helps a spouse ask for support without triggering a firefighter's fixer instinct, this conversation gives fire families language they can use tonight.

• Firefighter marriage communication improves dramatically when couples establish a predictable calling pattern instead of texting nonstop throughout a shift.
• A yearly marriage check in gives fire couples a structured way to talk about vacation planning, finances, and physical health before small frustrations turn into resentment.
• Marriage counseling for firefighters works best when it starts while the relationship is healthy rather than waiting until a crisis forces the conversation.
• Turning off fixer mode after a shift means listening first and fixing second, because a spouse who says they just need to vent is not asking for a solution.
• Maintaining independence in a fire marriage means protecting individual hobbies and friendships so neither partner loses their identity to the schedule.
• The stress threshold gap between firefighters and their spouses explains why the same event can feel like an emergency to one partner and routine to the other.
• Healthy firefighter marriages treat conflict as normal and even necessary, since working through disagreement builds trust rather than threatening it.

Finding Freedom Therapy

Transcript

Alex (00:20)
Alright. Hey Fire Family Collective. I am Alex and I'm so glad you are back listening to or watching the

Fire Family Collective podcast where we talk about things that we experience in the fire service as wives and spouses or significant others. and I'm excited to have Heath Holland on with me today. Hey Heath. I'm gonna

let you go into your kind of background, tell us about yourself. I'm gonna let you give your own title because I'll probably mess it up.

and then yeah, we'll go from there.

Heath Holland (00:55)
Awesome. Well, my name is Heath Holland. I'm a licensed master of social work. I do clinical practice on my off days from my full-time job as a firefighter. So I work full-time as a firefighter around DFW area. I've been doing that for a while. So got my fingers in both pies. Really

enjoy both jobs.

Alex (01:15)
Yeah, so that makes it pretty unique. We were talking right before we hopped on here about when first responders want to go see a therapist or a counselor, having someone who understands exactly what they're going through. Wha how what have you seen with that?

Heath Holland (01:32)
Yeah, it's been really cool. actually got into it because I kept being told, hey, you aren't going to understand first responders unless you are a part of being a first responder. So I went full send on that and just jumped right in. But it does break down a lot of barriers. It's really helpful in a lot of ways working with vets and first responders just to say, hey, I may not know exactly what you're going through right now, but I do have a shared experience that gives me a good idea.

I went to college knowing I wanted to help people. Grew really passionate for first responders during school. Just realized it was a community that wasn't getting the mental health care that they deserved or needed. But at the same time, I was going through my own journeys and experiences. I worked at church for a little bit. I went through seminary and then

God actually ordained in the church to be a chaplain and spent some time working as a college chaplain. So it's really cool just getting to pull from these different areas of understanding and knowledge just to kind of inform practice with people. When we're looking at a holistic view of a person, obviously you want physical, mental, emotional, and spiritual health. That's a huge part of being healthy and growing as a person.

Alex (02:44)
Yeah. I think it's really cool how all these different paths in life can kind of

we still end up in a certain spot. Like I don't know.

Heath Holland (02:52)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (02:53)
They're just you reflect at the end and you're like, okay, that happened, so this could happen. Like, a couple episodes I had my husband Kyle on

and we talked about how he was a high school teacher and a coach before he went to the fire service. And just how all those dots like had he not been a coach and a teacher, then it wouldn't have been as easy. He could have still taught in the academy, but having that teaching cert helped that and just all the little dots that align. So

Heath Holland (03:16)
I'm going to

Alex (03:19)
We talked earlier too about if you go into previous episodes, if y'all that are listening want more from counselors and therapists, we have a few episodes in the archives, I guess, so to speak, that y'all can go back and listen.

Heath Holland (03:20)
go back and listen.

Alex (03:33)
and so we didn't want to focus on kind of the generic. the job has high demands, there's trauma involved, and how does that affect marriage? yeah, it does. And just kind of leave it at that. We wanted to dive a little bit more. So we're gonna be talking more about the fire service and marriage.

Heath Holland (03:37)
Yeah, especially in firefighter world.

Alex (03:49)
So why Heath is marriage important for you to talk about and to encourage people in in this setting in the firefighter world?

Heath Holland (04:04)
So when I was first hired, uh, one of the first things I was told my first week of work was to be a real firefighter. You have to have a mustache, a truck and a divorce. Um,

Alex (04:14)
Hey y where's your mustache?

Heath Holland (04:16)
and I'm, I'm lacking in some of those areas. have the truck, uh, but you know, I just, I

Alex (04:19)
And that's it.

Heath Holland (04:23)
started growing the mustache and it gets a little dicey. So I tend to stay clean shaven, but so far have, have kept away from the divorce as well, but it's, it's so it's.

Sadly, very common. It is very commonplace in our line of work. You're hard pressed to find a station that doesn't have at least one crew member that has a divorce or multiple. And it's tough to see kind of the toll that our job takes on families, but it is really cool when you can find kind of somebody that you really connect with and get along with as a partner and build a good foundation and relationship with.

Alex (05:00)
Yeah, and we kinda

skipped over this, but you are married. How long have you and Liz been married?

Heath Holland (05:03)
I am married.

We've been married for, yeah,

Alex (05:07)
I'll put you on the spot, sorry.

Heath Holland (05:10)
six years now next month. So we got married

Alex (05:12)
Okay.

Heath Holland (05:12)
during COVID. So this will be our sixth anniversary next month. so, and we are still rocking and rolling, having a great time.

Alex (05:20)
Nice. Love it.

Okay, so let's kinda dive into just some of the logistics of the life. So things that make the firefighter life unique. we usually start talking about the schedule. So first, what kind of schedule are you on at your department? We're on a Kelly schedule here, which I

Heath Holland (05:35)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (05:35)
always say I'm not even gonna explain it because it's too hard.

Heath Holland (05:38)
Yeah, that schedule is nuts. It's

great that the guys that do it say they love it. For the most part I've heard but we're on a 24 48 here so I work one day on and then I'm off for two days.

Alex (05:49)
Okay.

Heath Holland (05:50)
Luckily I'm not away from the house for two days. I don't know how I would do a 48 96 but it

Alex (05:55)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (05:56)
is popular around this area too.

Alex (05:59)
Yeah. Okay, so how do you see the schedule, whether it's your marriage or marriages that you've witnessed in just your department or your clinic or whatever, how do you see the schedule impact marriages and like what can we do? You know, we're apart for many hours, we're apart, you know, like you said, maybe forty eight, maybe twenty four. what can we do to stay connected emotionally when we're not physically together?

Heath Holland (06:25)
Absolutely. Yeah. And that time away from family is, pretty tough sometimes. It feels like the only times that anything goes wrong at home is when I'm at work. I'm sure, I'm sure.

Alex (06:36)
Every single time.

Heath Holland (06:38)
Yeah. I'm about to you, and you have kids and so I'm sure it's even double that, that, you

Alex (06:41)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (06:42)
know, somebody got sick or somebody got this problem and Kyle, you know, at the station. Absolutely.

Alex (06:45)
Yep, all the illnesses, all the house issues, all of it.

Heath Holland (06:49)
And that's, and that seems to be one of the big things that, does kind of.

It causes it causes frustration there, right? Cause it's like, man, I wish I had my partner here to help me out and be involved in this. But as far as staying connected at work, the nice thing is we do have phones nowadays. And so like I have crewmates that we call our wives throughout the day. One of my buddies has kids and so he, his kids know that his phone is always on and if he's on a call, he'll give him a call right back. So, you know, we may be coming back from a run and he hops on the phone with his kiddos real quick and

like, dad, what are you doing? He's like, I'm on the, I'm on the ambulance today. I'm on the truck today.

Alex (07:26)
Mm-hmm.

Heath Holland (07:27)
and so really just having kind of that availability to your family to say, Hey, I may be at the station, but you guys are still a priority in my life. and to have that openness to, to have people not only call, but also come up to the station. a lot of our families visit the station, not only on big holidays, but fortunately enough, at least from my wife and I, like we don't live too, too far from my station. And so.

She can come by after work and kind of see each other on the weekends. And same with all the families at the station. We have kind of an open door policy, at least for families and kids.

We'll have everybody up and around. So just finding ways to still spend time with each other, even on those tough days. And we had a rookie recently have a kiddo and his wife would bring a kiddo up to the station. we just, all of sudden we all had a new nephew niece. We were all...

Alex (08:19)
Yep.

Heath Holland (08:21)
It's cool to have a supportive community up there, even when you feel like at home, um, some days it's, you're not getting quite the same support as you would as somebody who has both spouses at home, both all the days of the week.

Alex (08:33)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's one thing we do. We always FaceTime not always, but usually FaceTime

with the girls right before they go to bed and they get to see or I'll call and tell y random things right after I get off work usually. and

Heath Holland (08:45)
Okay.

Alex (08:46)
they're pretty good here too. We go up to the station. I'm always that wife though. I'm like, I don't want to be there too much where people are like, mm so I I'm always like, okay,

Heath Holland (08:52)
You

Alex (08:54)
wanna set if that, like 'cause I don't want

Heath Holland (08:57)
Yeah.

Alex (08:57)
to go over the top. So like, what does I mean, kind of on that topic, what does healthy communication look like on a shift schedule without being over

I don't know, I think I o maybe I just overthink it, but I'm sure there's other people out there that do too.

Heath Holland (09:12)
Yeah, so just having healthy communication. Obviously with anything we can go either too little or too much. Even with communication, even with your spouse you can love bomb them, you can just attack them

Alex (09:24)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (09:25)
with, I wanna be talking to you 24 seven and that's fine for some folks. Absolutely,

Alex (09:27)
Call every five seconds. Yeah.

Heath Holland (09:30)
and if that works for a relationship, that's awesome. But at the same time, at least I can speak from Liz and I's perspective, which is we do keep an open line of communication mostly through texts throughout the day.

Thank God for phones and

Alex (09:43)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (09:44)
the modern technology. But at the same time, we always know that right after dinner at work, once we get cleaned up, she's probably getting a phone call.

Alex (09:52)
Mm-hmm.

Heath Holland (09:53)
Or vice versa, you know, if I'm getting a call from her, I know it's important. And so it does kind of foster this.

intentional communication with one another being, hey, if my wife's calling outside of these times that we've kind of fallen into the routine of, I know something else is up and I should probably answer. Same with her. And so it's, you kind of fall into a rhythm and a pattern that works for you as a couple.

Alex (10:18)
Yeah, I think that keyword there is intentional. It's not ever like

Heath Holland (10:20)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (10:21)
marriage in general, but especially communication, it's not ever going to be something that just happens. I'll make a comment here too. Liz's parents are a great role model for me. Like we were in their Sunday school class for a little bit, but and we talked a lot about healthy marriages and but it that was kinda always something that came up. It's it's something you choose. It's not something that's just gonna happen. You know, you're not gonna have a healthy marriage just by accident.

Heath Holland (10:48)
Yeah.

Alex (10:48)
it's something you have to continually

be intentional about.

Heath Holland (10:51)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (10:52)
So, yeah.

So when he is home, I feel like there's or you're home. when the firefighter is home. I feel like there's this line and we kind of struggle with this sometimes, not probably more so than not, of we have to get in business mode 'cause there's things that we've gotta do. Like, okay, you're finally home. Now we gotta do this, we gotta do this, we gotta do this. Like I have someone there to do stuff with, and to help. And then there's the other side of the line of like actually connecting. Like we can go run a million errands and we

haven't connected all day. We've just gone into business mode. Or Kyle

and I have talked about we get into roommate mode. It's like we're both here. We're both doing something, but I don't know the last time we've sat down and like had a conversation about not business, basically. so how do you advise couples to just

Heath Holland (11:36)
Yeah.

Alex (11:43)
make sure that the marriage stays priority, I guess, over that to do list?

Heath Holland (11:48)
Yeah,

for sure. that's, and that's a big, it's gonna look different for everybody, right? What works for me may not work for you. Like I said, kids throw a whole nother layer into the mix. And Liz and I don't have kiddos. And so we, you know, it's a little easier for us to just be like, hey, we're face to face. Like, we don't have other little munchkins running around. Whereas I know you guys have that in the mix. And so yeah. And so

Alex (12:09)
Not as many interruptions.

Heath Holland (12:13)
as far as intentionality at home, I was

pretty terrible at this when I first got hired because it's a very new thing when you're first getting into Fireworld to understand that like you also have to rest at home because your nighttime sleep at the station is usually hot garbage. And

Alex (12:29)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (12:31)
so I'd get off and not have slept and been like, okay, it's daytime, let's go. But then by the evening when Liz got home and it was time for us to, you know, spend time together and really connect. I was dead tired. She was tired from

her work and we would both just, you know, binge watch whatever's on TV and then be like, okay, bedtime. And after,

Alex (12:49)
Like check out, yeah.

Heath Holland (12:50)
yeah. And after a while you start looking around and going, you're right. It's kind of like roommate mode. You're like, what are we doing? You know? And so on, on my part, took a lot of self-awareness to go, I'm going to get off work and I'm going to be tired. I need to come home and rest for a minute. I need to take time to work on myself a little bit so that my spouse gets the better version of me than what I'm available to offer them.

Otherwise, and that's kind of the big thing with communication and relationships as a whole, right? You're doing this life together, but also you have to work on yourselves in the midst of all that. Like there are things that I got to work on on my own time so that I can give better to my to my wife and same with her. She works on her own things so that she can come into this relationship and we can kind of meet on a more level playing ground going, OK, we've both arrested. We both thought

Alex (13:38)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (13:39)
through what we're about to say. Unfortunately, we're also

to not super explosive people. you know, our fightings are, if we know it's coming, we're a little, we're pretty good at

Alex (13:49)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (13:50)
stepping aside, but I know everybody's a little bit different and conflict styles always line up a little bit different. And so having that time of just, once again, being intentional with your time away from your spouse, whether that's resting, recharging for yourself, getting stuff done that you can before the spouse gets home, those are really important to remember.

Alex (14:12)
Yeah, I think it's it's a huge job where you kind of both have to be independent.

Not kind of. I mean you both have to have your

Heath Holland (14:17)
Yes.

Alex (14:18)
independence, whether that be like th you were saying, we both have to get our cups filled in however that is. Like, I know Kyle sometimes he just needs a nap, sometimes he needs to go have a round of golf and really that's talking things out with whoever he's golfing with. but then there's also that independence on the wife's side, like we have to be okay being independent and I know some people have

a harder time with that, or some are super independent already and they're good to go. But

But how have you seen like thriving marriages balance that, relying on each other and relying on the team of the marriage, with also fostering that independence?

Heath Holland (15:00)
So once this kind of goes back to communication, right. And we've kind of talked about this a little bit, but overall that kind of independence, especially for once again, I speak for my example, my wife and I are both pretty independent people. We're both pretty self-sufficient as far as how we spend our time alone.

because we have different hobbies and interests. And I think one thing that a lot of folks miss is that it's okay to have your own identity outside of your spouse. Obviously, marriage is a huge thing. It's a covenant between two people as far as I'm concerned. And it is that relationship together, but you maintain your individual likes, your dislikes, right? There's a couple of Star Wars things back here on my shelf that

Alex (15:43)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (15:43)
you can probably see. My wife is not into that, but it's...

Alex (15:46)
Ha ha ha.

Heath Holland (15:47)
And that's okay. We can spend time doing the things we enjoy. can, can go see movies with, a brother, my crew, the different guys to work with and she can go see her movies that she enjoys. But at the end of the day, we're both going to find that commonality that we share that love and interest in that hopefully is the reason, you know, that we were drawn to each other in the first place. It is hard to do that when you're spending so much time at the station that you kind of forget that you have a

Partnering home and it's not so much in a forgetful sense like I completely forgot she's there but I'm sure you guys have talked about it before you form a family relationship with the folks that you work with as well. It kind of becomes your your two families that you're you're juggling right? I have my goofballs that I work with and I love dearly

Alex (16:30)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (16:33)
in one way, but I also have my wife that should be the relationship at the end of the day that hopefully takes priority when push comes to shove. I can have the different identities with each of them, but it's still me.

I'm still one person, but I have to really balance that my wife comes first above what I do at work, whether it's the fire station, at

the counseling center, that your relationship with your spouse is something that is to be cherished above all the other things. And

Alex (17:03)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (17:03)
a lot of guys and girls will retreat into kind of that other family, right? When one family is not doing well, it's easy to retreat

Alex (17:12)
Uh-huh.

Heath Holland (17:12)
into the other one.

And I think a lot of folks miss the fact that if things aren't going well at home, they're probably going to go start griping about it to their friends at work. They're going to start griping

Alex (17:21)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (17:22)
about it to their other friends. And that's, really not helpful for anybody. All it is, I mean, you're getting, you're blowing off some steam, but it's not solving any problems and vice versa,

Alex (17:30)
Right.

Heath Holland (17:31)
right? Like Liz has friends that I know she chats with when I'm being a butt head. And if I were, yeah.

Alex (17:38)
Yeah, that happens on the wife's side

too. like we'll we have our frustrations and our people that we vent to too and like you were saying, it's you have to have

healthy balance and priorities. and I was and I feel like it's it could be easy to be trapped in your independence of where you're prioritizing your work life or for us where we're prioritizing our hobbies or other groups that we're involved in and

Heath Holland (18:04)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (18:06)
we're maybe prioritizing our independence. And then we're not coming together as, wait, we are also one.

Where we need to check in and see, okay, where are we as a team together? Where we're not right now? Okay. And I think that's where a lot of people follow is they never have that check in. Like the alarms are going off

Heath Holland (18:26)
Yeah.

Alex (18:27)
and they're just like ignoring

Heath Holland (18:30)
Absolutely and that that was a huge piece of advice I got when I first got on the department was somebody told me hey if nothing else have a Yearly check in with your spouse, which sounds like that's nuts because

Alex (18:42)
Ha.

Heath Holland (18:42)
yeah, it's like I see my spouse every day or for the most part but Having that just like a time that we set aside to go. Okay, where are we at with things? How are we doing? Well, how are we struggling? How do we want to grow? What have we done? Well this year it's kind of just that

time spent where it's just mapping out, hey, where have we been? What do we still want to accomplish? How are we going to do that together? Because it's a partnership, right? In the same way that you're planning for anything at work, you got to do that at home too. As easy as it is to just brush blindly into things. I mean, this includes sitting down and talking about, what do we want to do as far as vacation this year for fun? What are we going to do about finances this year? How are we going to navigate that with the income that we're making? How are we going to navigate?

our physical health, like I'm hitting the gym. Are you hitting the gym? You know, like are we,

Alex (19:33)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (19:34)
are we keeping each other accountable for that? What are we eating this, this weekend? Are we eating chicken or are we like making cupcakes? You know,

Alex (19:39)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (19:41)
it's, it's kind of that breakdown of making a game plan with each other as opposed to having two different game plans that are not lining up and causing, causing strife.

Alex (19:51)
Yeah, 'cause we can

both make our own schedules and our own ideas, but if we never come to together. We always talk about that. And we'll

Heath Holland (19:58)
Yeah.

Alex (20:01)
usually it's like around our anniversary, we'll take a little trip up somewhere and it's usually a road trip 'cause we're cheap cheaper, I don't know, nowadays.

Heath Holland (20:10)
yeah, y'all have great road trips though, that's awesome.

Alex (20:11)
Ye yeah. And so

I mean we'll sit in the car and like last year we drove I don't know, over fourteen hours, probably in one day,

Heath Holland (20:19)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (20:19)
and just talked the whole way. And so we were like, okay, you can tell we haven't, you know, checked in w with each other in a while,

Heath Holland (20:25)
Yeah,

Alex (20:26)
But yeah, just having that time to check back in, prioritize and realize we are a team. I think that gets taken for granted or overshadowed or that th neither of those are the words I'm looking for, but just not seen and done as often as it should, for sure.

Heath Holland (20:44)
Absolutely. And the foundation of if you kind of take a Gottman perspective, which is psychology talk for, it's one way to look at a relationship,

Alex (20:52)
Go for it.

Heath Holland (20:54)
Relationships are built on trust and commitment. And that's something that really has to come into play when you're away from your spouse for a third of your year, or

Alex (21:03)
Mm-hmm.

Heath Holland (21:05)
however it plays out with 4896.

I have to trust that my wife has my best interest at heart and that she has to trust vice versa that even though I'm away for a little bit, like I have her best interest in things and we're committed to doing this together. And that's going to be the foundation of any relationship that's functional and healthy.

Alex (21:23)
Absolutely. so we talk a lot about when relationships are not going well. Okay, yeah, when y'all are struggling, okay, now it's time to reach out. Now now let's you need to go talk

to a counselor or you need to go XYZ, right? We get this long list. But we hear at least here when we ever when we talk to rookies and stuff about just things they're gonna experience in the life when we're at the academy. Kyle and I talk about like making sure your marriage is healthy and then we

Go into the whole PTSD talk where they talk about go to get help. And so what would you say? Because I think some of our healthy relationships are like, well, we're not really having that issue right now. So they check either check out of that conversation or we focus so much on that. What do you say to those of us that are listening that we're like, my relationship

Heath Holland (22:01)
Okay.

Alex (22:11)
is healthy, my relationship is great, like we're we're thriving. what I guess advice or

I don't know, things would you have to say to those that maybe they're not in a panic mode right now, but just ways to what to watch out for or I don't know. Can I go off?

Heath Holland (22:31)
Absolutely.

Yeah. I think mental health, I think we need to treat in the same regard as physical health, right? A lot of people have primary care physicians, hopefully

only go see him maybe once a year, you know, you get your blood work and they're like, great, stop eating cheeseburgers so much. And you're like, cool, I got you. And I'll see you next year.

Alex (22:49)
I had one tell me yesterday, she goes, Do you consume

artificial sweeteners? And I was like, like cook with them? Cause no. And she goes, No, do you have like protein bars, diet sodas, all this? I was like, well, I drink Diet Coke. And so then the doctor comes and is like, quit drinking Diet Coke. Those are neurotoxins. And I was like, Yes, ma'am. And then I had a Diet Coke after I left. So it's fine.

Heath Holland (23:06)
Yeah. Well, that's yeah, absolutely. You know, we're at the office

and I'm always I'm always asking guys like how many energy drinks have you had today? You know, and they're like, I mean, you know, like just a couple and I'm like, yeah, don't do that. Or just cut back to one. Yeah. And they're like, yeah,

Alex (23:23)
They're like, sure, buddy.

Heath Holland (23:26)
that's not going to happen. I'm like, I know. But yeah, but I said it.

Alex (23:28)
But I said it.

Heath Holland (23:30)
But in the same way that you would have a primary care physician or take care of your

physical health preemptively. I really think a lot of people kind of miss that mark with counselors. There's kind of this preconceived idea of like, I go to a counselor when things have already hit the fan. I go to the counselor when I'm struggling really, really hard and everything's gone to crap. It's like, well, set up that relationship early. Find a counselor that maybe doesn't specialize in one specific thing, but is more attuned to kind of talking and just talk therapy. Just having somebody that you can vent to and be mad with and

share the good parts too. I guarantee you, would be hard pressed to find a counselor that if you showed up and said, things are going great. Let me just tell you about all the really cool things. You would freak them out because they'd be like, they'd be like, why are you here? No, but

Alex (24:12)
But get out. No

Heath Holland (24:16)
it would also be really exciting. that relationship would already be established, right? Relationships with counselors. It is a relationship. It's a two way street. You're working with a person, not talking to an AI bot. You know, you're, you're actually having a conversation with another human. And I think people forget that is like,

I have relationships with my clients from a counseling perspective. Like I am their counselor and they're my clients. But at the same time, they also know that we've talked enough about the things that are going on in their life that when things do go bad, we can already kind of fall back on this previous knowledge base and go, hey, this kind of reminds me of that time when, or how have we dealt with this in the past? And so it kind of gives this preemptive, you know, guard wall or firewall, if you want to call it.

to already have a base established for moving forward. And I

get folks in my office sometimes they're like, I don't know why I'm here. I'm like, that's okay. Just tell me about yourself. know, like counselors,

Alex (25:11)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (25:13)
it's just, it can be a great space just to vent and just to have

Alex (25:16)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (25:17)
a space to go to that's not venting to your friends, your crewmates or your spouse if you need a separate space for that.

Alex (25:25)
Yeah, so that was kinda gonna be my next just statement on what you said was that we Kyle and I have talked before about him going to see someone and like when things are good we'll talk about it and he's like, Well, I don't know what we're gonna talk about and so I'm sure there's a ton of people that are out there that are like, Well, I mean I don't have anything, like I don't have any trauma right now that we need to go hash out. So, yeah, what would be your I'm

besides just that establishing care, I mean what's kinda your push of like guys like, yes, things are healthy, come on in. We and like

Heath Holland (25:54)
Yeah.

Alex (25:54)
I think hi from the perspective he's like they're gonna think it's weird, I don't have problems. Like

Heath Holland (26:00)
No, that's

honestly, that's a really exciting day for a counselor, especially one that works with first responders and first responder families. If you come in and you're like, I'm good. You're like, awesome. That's really cool. That's really exciting for both of us. things you can ask in advance if you're setting up kind of that care with counseling, ask about learning more about coping skills. So that way when you're already in the thick of it, you're not trying to learn new skills because nobody learns under pressure, right? You don't go.

show up to your power lifting me without having ever lifted a barbell, you know? And you're like, I'm gonna figure this out today. That doesn't work

Alex (26:32)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (26:34)
like that. Same with counseling. You know, if I say, hey, you look like you're having a panic attack. You look like you're kind of freaking out right now. You're really pissed off. How are we gonna come down from that? And you go, well, teach me a new skill. I'm like, it's not gonna stick right now. You might hear it and it might help in the moment, but the long-term retention of that's not gonna be as great. So ask them about coping skills.

Asking if you can just share your life story. You may gain insight from telling your story and having a third party perspective say, hey, that sounds like this thing might've been a little off or tell me more about

Alex (27:08)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (27:09)
how that influenced your choices now. How did you end up where you're at? And then psycho ed, think having firefighters, especially first responders understand the neuroscience behind

Feelings and emotions and thoughts is super important. That's one of the first things I do with anybody that comes into my office is explain, hey, here's the neurobiology of your brain and there's a lot more going on here than just feelings. So when you have those moments after shift where the symptoms are kicking up and you know, the guys at the station just say, hey, suck it up. You'll be fine. Just like the rest of us, you can go, yeah, I'll be fine. Like the rest of you at one of these.

days but right now my brain is fired up here's the neuroscience here's what's going on chemically in my brain like I am imbalanced but I can explain that to you and so

Alex (27:56)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (27:58)
it takes kind of that weight off of just feeling like hey I'm really bad at emotions I'm really bad at regulating

Alex (28:03)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (28:04)
you know it's like no there's there's a lot more cognitively and biologically that's going on than what we give credit to

Alex (28:11)
Yeah, and I've heard it said too about marriages.

Go to counseling when everything's good. Establish

Heath Holland (28:16)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (28:17)
that. you can talk about how you communicate with each other and different things, but go while it's good. So then again, we're not in panic mode going, Okay, what do we do? 'cause then

Heath Holland (28:27)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (28:28)
it's a lot harder to figure out in that instance.

Heath Holland (28:31)
Yeah. And

there's a part of it that's, you know, it's, we talked about, you know, this marriage and it's a partnership and part of that is gently challenging each other to once again, go take care of your own separate business too, along with your own, know, just like my wife says, Hey, you're being kind of grumpy. Maybe you should go talk to your counselor in the same way I could do that with her and say, Hey, maybe this would be good to talk with somebody that's not me. at the end of day, you can't choose somebody else's food for them. You know,

You gotta help yourself a little bit.

Alex (29:04)
Yeah. Yeah, I think that's

Firefighters are fixers a lot of times.

Heath Holland (29:09)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (29:10)
that's kind of nature of the job. They so how can y'all kind of turn off that fixer brain when sometimes we just want to vent and how can we have that healthy communication there of like, I just need to get some stuff out, I don't necessarily need you to fix it right now or I even have moments like this where I feel bad telling him something that's going on at home because I know he's gonna want to fix it, but he's not physically here to do it. And so I'm like, Well, I don't wanna tell him

'cause don't but then I also need that moment to get it out or else I'm gonna lose it. And so

Heath Holland (29:41)
Yeah.

Alex (29:42)
kind of that how can we how can the firefighters switch over from fixer mode, but then also how can the spouse maybe approach it where we let know, like, hey, click out and just listen.

Heath Holland (29:55)
Yeah,

absolutely. And from the firefighter firefighter firefighter perspective, excuse me, like, first off, give your spouse some credit because they are crushing at home while you're not there. Like they're taking care of all the things that you were not at that point in time. And so there is an obvious draw to want to get home, do all the things that were left undone, fix things. I know that's kind of our pre disposition is coming off a shift is like, I just spent all night fixing all the people's problems that

needed fixing all night, now I gotta go home and do it with my family. And that can cause resentment

Alex (30:26)
Mm-hmm.

Heath Holland (30:27)
coming in with that attitude. If you come in and go, no, this is my family, there may be problems to fix, but it's not my job to go in there guns a blazing. At first, I might need to just go in and assess the situation, just like you would on any fire scene. You gotta kind of figure out what you're dealing with first. Same with a paramedic scene. You may go in and be like, well, I gotta get all the symptoms first before I can do anything about it. And part of that is listening to your spouse and just understanding that

you guys do have that trust together and that what your spouse is telling you is probably where they're coming from. So take the second, hear them out, don't fix it, ignore that for 10

Alex (31:05)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (31:05)
seconds just so you can kind of get all the pieces and then I guarantee you if you still want to fix it, you're going to have a lot more information going into it. There was

Alex (31:12)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (31:12)
a video that circulated a lot a few years back on YouTube where someone had a nail sticking out of their forehead and she was like, there's just a lot of pressure up here and

Alex (31:20)
I remember that one.

Heath Holland (31:22)
He'd go, well, there's a, she's like, it's not about the nail, you know?

Yeah, it's not that. I always

Alex (31:24)
It's like, no, no, it's not that Huh.

Heath Holland (31:29)
go back to that video and just laugh about that. Cause it is kind of that situation here. It's, know, you come home and your, you know, spouse is mad at you for whatever reason. You're like, okay, well let me, you know, let me do the dishes or something. They're like, it's not about the dishes. It's, it's

Alex (31:45)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (31:45)
the fact that I'm stressed out too. And you're stressed out or both stressed out, having that open dialogue is huge.

actually telling your spouse what you're feeling. I think a lot of people don't give their spouse enough credit in regard to what they can take. Like you married this person because you saw something in them that you trusted and cared about, like trust them to take on those big things. Vice versa, know, for Liz, she's learned a lot of times that I will jump into fixer mode, you know, if she's like, hey, there's this, I'm like, okay, what can I do?

Alex (32:15)
Ha ha.

Heath Holland (32:16)
And so even from her side, prefacing, hey,

I don't want her sponsor right now. I just want to tell you this. And that's kind of my cue to go, okay, hold on. need to sit back and, you know, like, okay, what you, what you got for me? And she'll tell me the whole spiel. I'm like, and you know, she'll say, this is a situation where I just want you to listen. I don't want you to, and that's not, that's not being commanding. That's not being domineering in a relationship at all. It's just, it's explaining to your spouse directly and openly, Hey, this is what I need from you right now. Like, please don't fix it for just a second.

Just hear me out. You can even kind of go with the additive, like, not now, but in a minute, you can do something about it. So what we used to tell our campers back in the day was, not now, in a minute, and then explain what's going on.

Alex (33:05)
so that was something we had to learn in our marriage and it took time for me, more so well, he's kinda this way too, but I would never say anything. It was kind of like an he needs to know that I'm upset or he needs to know this is what I need, but I would never actually say anything. And I think it goes maybe to what you were saying, is I felt commanding or I felt

Like, I don't know. Like, I'm not gonna say that 'cause he's gonna think I mean bossy. And so

Heath Holland (33:30)
Yeah.

Alex (33:31)
I didn't ever say anything and we had to get to the point where I was like, Okay, I am very overwhelmed right now and part of that took me having to recognize that myself, but I'm very overwhelmed right now, this and this and this happened. I don't want to do anything about it right now, 'cause it can't handle that. So

Heath Holland (33:48)
Yeah.

Well, and that's, and that's something too, that, know, my wife and I had to learn was conflict is okay. I think a lot of people shy away from, know, it's a,

my gosh, if we have conflict, something terrible is going to happen. Yeah. Or even,

Alex (34:00)
We're done. Yeah.

Heath Holland (34:03)
you know, they, I'm sure y'all talk to new rookies about this. It's like, Hey, you're going to have conflict. And sometimes that scares people and go, my gosh, I don't want a divorce. It's like, you can have conflict without jumping straight to separation or whatever

Alex (34:14)
Yes.

Heath Holland (34:14)
the situation is conflict.

helps us grow. That's how we grow as people. That's how we learn things. You know, we mess up and we learn from that experience. Same goes for our marriage. You're gonna mess up. You're gonna piss the other person off. You're gonna do things that upset your spouse and that's okay. Because then you look at the why of it and you go, why am I mad right now? Is it because I'm really mad at you and the situation or is it because I haven't slept? I've only eaten a granola bar today. The kids are upsetting

Alex (34:42)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (34:43)
me. There's a lot of things going on.

and I just need to explode somewhere. And so it's going to be on you because you're the easiest target, you know?

Alex (34:50)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (34:50)
And looking at the root cause of the why of that conflict and being able to step back. Now, obviously in the moment, conflict is its own thing. It's a whole other

Alex (34:58)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (34:58)
topic, but after being able to step back and go, why did we do that? How can we do better in the future?

Alex (35:03)
And being okay apologizing. Like

Heath Holland (35:06)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (35:06)
I think sometimes we're like, Okay, let's just move on. It's like, No, I need to say,

Heath Holland (35:10)
Yeah.

Alex (35:11)
Hey, I'm sorry I screamed at you or whatever. Yeah. Yeah.

Heath Holland (35:13)
Mm-hmm. Well, in the same way at the fire station, like,

you get tips with your crewmates all the time. They're going to do stuff that annoy you, most people just roll on and say, OK, like, how can we do that with this family but not this one at home, you know?

Alex (35:29)
Yeah.

Yeah. Exactly. And I think you mentioned resentment earlier. I think it's really easy to keep score, when, you know, I'm here changing diapers all day. And so then he comes home and I'm like, No, this is yours. Like I ha you got four to catch up on, like

Heath Holland (35:43)
Yeah.

Alex (35:46)
so keeping score I mean it whether you're in the fire service or not, it's never healthy.

Heath Holland (35:51)
to this.

Alex (35:52)
but what is what are some things to I mean

Communication I feel like always comes up, but to help not build that resentment, of, hey, I'm doing all this over here and you're gone for twenty four hours and, you know, you get to escape and like I'm drowning, you know, type deal. Or whatever,

Heath Holland (36:09)
Yeah.

Alex (36:09)
I mean, even if you don't have kids.

Heath Holland (36:11)
No, for sure. part of that comes with kind of adopting basically a posture of gratitude about the things that you can be excited about, right? You can be so frustrated with your spouse for not doing X, and Z. You know, I can be mad if Liz doesn't do this or she can be mad if I don't vacuum the house, you know, something like that. But at the same time, we can also both look and go, hey, thank you for feeding the dog today. Like, you know, just the basics. Thank you for keeping our dog alive.

Thank you for keeping

Alex (36:41)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (36:41)
our kids. Thank you for keeping our kids alive. And

Alex (36:43)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (36:44)
before you even go further than the explosion saying, Hey, thank you for what you're doing here. Also, I am very mad at this using the, using the word, but in between phrases completely tends to negate the first

Alex (36:58)
Mm. Negates.

Heath Holland (37:00)
part. So, man, I, I, I love that you did the dishes, but I'm so mad that you didn't do the.

the mop the floors, you know, it's, negates that first half. So coming at it with a, I'm, I love that you did the dishes and also I'm a little frustrated right now that the floors didn't get on. And I know that's one example, but using that

Alex (37:21)
Right.

Heath Holland (37:22)
across all spaces, you know, I'm, so grateful that you went to work today and are helping to provide for us, but also, and also I'm really frustrated our kids right now.

Alex (37:30)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (37:32)
You can have more than one emotion. They don't have to take over the entire space. It's kind of like that Inside Out movie. You don't have

Alex (37:39)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (37:39)
to let one run the entire ship. You can kind of let them play around and both be... They're not mutually exclusive. And just having that open dialogue.

Alex (37:47)
Yeah, mu and multiple things

Yeah, and multiple things can be true at the same time.

Heath Holland (37:51)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (37:52)
And

yeah, we've actually talked a lot about that in our marriage recently, of like I don't just have to be mad at this. This you know, or whatever, that

Heath Holland (38:01)
Yeah.

Alex (38:01)
whatever the topic is. Things can occur at the same time. And they can be opposites and still be there. But

Heath Holland (38:07)
Absolutely.

Alex (38:09)
so we've kind of talked about

some I guess green flags so to speak to be cliche sounding about some marriages. I mean obviously we've talked about communication all over this podcast. having healthy communication, open lines of communic communication, direct lines of communication. Just keeping that going and healthy. and then having your own unique identities away from the fire service as a couple, away from each other independently, and then having those check

So is there anything else you can think of you want to share on the marriage topic?

Heath Holland (38:49)
Yeah,

I guess just also understanding that it would touch on this to touch, but a little bit. But. Nothing is a one size fit all you know, it works for my marriage doesn't work for another person doesn't work for another person. That's a huge thing that. Try your best not to compare your marriage to somebody else's right? Everybody is going to do it a little bit differently. It's the same way with I'm sure you guys get tired of having people like, well, I wouldn't.

do my kids like that. You know, I wouldn't raise my give my kids red 40. I don't know. I don't I don't know.

Alex (39:21)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (39:23)
But you know, it's the same with marriages. I wouldn't you know, if I walk by and say, Oh, that couple's doing this, you know, like, what works for them works for them. And that's a really important thing to when you're approaching relationships as a whole is every relationship is gonna look a little bit different. So don't feel ashamed of the fact that you're doing it different than somebody else. But be excited about the parts that are working and then grow in the areas that aren't

Alex (39:46)
Yeah, always remember that y'all's identity as a couple is completely different from everyone else. I think it's really

Heath Holland (39:51)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (39:52)
easy in the fire service because y'all have that family at the station where y'all do talk about things. Like we're not gonna say you don't,

Heath Holland (39:57)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (39:58)
you know, y'all check in with each other and on life and talk about your marriages and things like that. so you get those bits and pieces of, well they do this and and we get that too on our side, you know, whoever we

Heath Holland (40:10)
and

Alex (40:10)
are close to, vent to, or connect with,

Heath Holland (40:12)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (40:13)
we're like, well this couple is doing that Okay, yeah, but that's not

Us. And sometimes I'll

Heath Holland (40:17)
Yeah.

Alex (40:18)
be like I'm like, Man, we should do that and I think about that is so not our personality whatsoever. Why would I want to do that?

Heath Holland (40:21)
Yeah. Well, and then that same.

Yeah, absolutely. And in that same vein, trying your best not to talk bad about your spouse or disparagingly about your spouse to

Alex (40:31)
Absolutely.

Heath Holland (40:33)
the other groups. Right. In the same way that Liz, I hope, is it is it going to I trust that Liz isn't going

Alex (40:39)
Yeah yeah.

Heath Holland (40:39)
to her friends and saying, my gosh, she does this and this and this. I'm not going to go to the fire station and say, wow, my wife is such a feeling

Alex (40:48)
Mm-hmm.

Heath Holland (40:49)
that you know.

now I can go up there and say, I'm kind of, I'm, I've been frustrated this week because I feel like Liz doing this, but I'm not going to go up there and say, man, Liz is such a, you know, and,

Alex (41:02)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (41:03)
and attack my spouse in front of other people, you know, like that, that's one way to sow discord there.

Alex (41:06)
Yeah, there's a complete difference of

Yeah, there's a complete difference of just like venting, maybe asking for advice, how ya all been through this, how'd you do it, and bad mouthing your spouse. There's a complete

Heath Holland (41:20)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (41:20)
difference there. They are not the same thing. Yeah.

Heath Holland (41:22)
No, not in the slightest.

Alex (41:24)
Yeah.

Alright. so I I like to end with kind of some fun questions. There might be a serious one in here, and again this is where I said I hope I can read my handwriting.

Heath Holland (41:33)
Yeah.

Alex (41:34)
I cheesily l one in my first two episodes I called it the priority one. So we've got kind of the lightning round of questions. there's not a specific number, so we'll see. okay, what is the best or your favorite firehouse meal to have at the station and maybe what's the worst that you've been forced to eat?

Heath Holland (41:51)
Ooh,

best is my Captain Spish tacos. We had them the other night and all bets are off the table. I go nuts. Those things are so

Alex (41:58)
Ha ha.

Heath Holland (41:58)
good. He makes this mango salsa that goes with it. 10 out of 10.

Alex (42:02)
that sounds delicious.

Heath Holland (42:03)
It is my favorite. Worst thing I ever had. I had a guy try and substitute meat with cauliflower one night, but he covered the cauliflower in buffalo wing sauce and then steamed it. And so it was kind of mushy buffalo.

Cauliflower that he was like this is taking the place of our meat tonight, and I was like you were wrong I'm not gonna tell you that to your face I'm gonna eat it because I care about you, but this is disgusting

Alex (42:26)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (42:27)
and I will never do this again That's the worst

Alex (42:29)
Every time I think of s a situation like that I think back to like when we would go on mission trips and they would be like, Whatever you're served, you're gonna eat it and we're sitting there like, Okay, I g I have to eat it Yeah. Yeah. I still do that and I think about it every single

Heath Holland (42:34)
It's like Mexico. Yeah. And then put the plate down in the trash can. Yeah.

Alex (42:46)
time. okay, what's your favorite way that you and Liz like to connect in y'all's marriage or you know, a fun thing you like to do together or something like that.

Heath Holland (42:57)
We do a lot of traveling. That is one nice thing about the schedules we have is that we do have time to kind of get away. And so that's a huge one for us is even in our days today, when we're kind of just going through the motions, we always try and have something else we're looking forward to. So something on the calendar, at least every month we have a date night that's just committed to, hey, phones are away. We're going to go do something really fun that we don't normally do. And then a couple of times a year we get away completely go on vacation.

Alex (43:26)
Ha ha.

Heath Holland (43:27)
and just have that time to ourselves. so just being really intentional about the time that we do have together, because it's not a whole lot with how busy we both are.

Alex (43:35)
Yeah. I love that y'all keep a consistent date night. I think it's so easy

It was really easy when before Kyle and I had kids and now it's even easier to let that slide. 'cause before we had kids we're like, we don't need a date night. Like every night we're together. And it's like,

Heath Holland (43:45)
Yeah. Yeah.

Alex (43:49)
no, you need to be intentional to like have a special or it doesn't have to be a big deal. Like sometimes it was just like

Heath Holland (43:55)
Mm-hmm.

Alex (43:55)
we're gonna watch this movie and have this pizza, like or we were gonna

Heath Holland (43:58)
Yeah.

Alex (43:59)
go we do a lot of escape rooms. It was like we're gonna go find this to do.

Heath Holland (44:01)
Nice.

Alex (44:02)
And luckily when we before we had kids, we were still in the D FW area, so there's a lot more options than where we are.

Yeah.

Heath Holland (44:09)
Absolutely. Yeah, I was about to say we being

down here around DFW, there's always something going on. It's a little different up up where you guys are at. But it's yeah, being essential is really, really been awesome for

our marriage.

Alex (44:22)
Yeah. Okay, what is kind of your ultimate station wisdom or piece of advice that you would tell a new rookie? And even we'll tack on to that 'cause of the theme of the episode, that you would tell a new rook n a new married rookie for their marriage too.

Heath Holland (44:39)
Oof. I mean, around the station, I'm kind of a feelings guy. There's a of us around around our department. But so I'm as shocker. The counselor is very big on the it's very important to talk to somebody when you're going through something. At the same time, I have guys that come to me and they're like, I'm OK. And I'm like, great. It is OK to be OK. I think we in the in the huge shift towards mental health, which is awesome. And I love what's happening in firewalls right now.

around the conversations around mental health. There is also, as we talked about at beginning, you can always swing too far one way. And I don't think we've gone too far with mental health, but I think some people go, well, I need something to talk about. It's like, man, enjoy life. If you feel like you're doing great and you're rocking and rolling, lean into that, but also keep an eye on what's going on in your world and listen to the people around you. If somebody really close to you starts to notice what's going on,

tell them upfront that they are allowed to say, hey, I'm noticing something's up with you. You're acting different. Having that safe person, whether it's your spouse, whether it's a good friend, be able to safely with no repercussions say you're acting off is super important to have. my wife was that for me when I was first on and going through my first few rounds of crazy stuff. And I was like, I'm fine, I'm fine. It's new, it's good. Like I'm not sleeping,

Alex (46:03)
Ha.

Heath Holland (46:04)
but it's fine. And she was like, hey buddy, you know.

Alex (46:06)
You're

not playing.

Heath Holland (46:08)
Yeah,

you're shocker. You're not fine. And for me, like that was enough of a jolt to say, okay, maybe I do need to think about this, you know, and she was that person. So if you're entering into marriage, you've already been a firefighter, you're just getting into being a firefighter in a marriage. Really understanding that you're getting into a career field like no other. And you should be the person that is their safe person to say, hey, you're acting a little off.

and listen to that when that

advice is given.

Alex (46:39)
Absolutely. Alright, last one I got for you. So from your clinical perspective, what do firefighters wish that their spouse or their wife knew or understood about what they experienced, but maybe they don't say.

Heath Holland (46:53)
That it's exhausting, but in its own way, it, you know, and especially if you want to look at it from the clinical perspective, everybody's got a stress threshold. And so getting into the meat of potatoes of it, most people function in this range right here. And if you get out of that, you can get hyper, hyper arousal and below that you get hypo arousal and that's a whole other topic, but firefighters and first responders in general, we kind of shift ours due to the lack of sleep, due to the calls that we run.

due to just the psychological weight that we're carrying and what have you, over and over and over, your body tends to be able to bring that stress threshold back down. But since it's a repeat cycle for years and years and years, what it does is it shifts our balance up just a little bit. And so a lot of times, the further we get into this career, the harder it is for those stress thresholds to line up. And so a lot of times we're going to be in a kind of a different state of arousal. So something that may be an emergency to my wife, to me, I go,

Okay, their arms cut open and they're

Alex (47:53)
Yeah.

Heath Holland (47:54)
bleeding everywhere. Like what, you know, like what's the problem? But then that caused

Alex (47:57)
Ha ha ha.

Heath Holland (47:58)
this problem is because my wife's like, be more, you know, yeah. And I'm like,

Alex (48:00)
No, their arm is cut open and bleeding everywhere.

Heath Holland (48:03)
I'm like, okay, I saw like four those this week, you know, like there's,

Alex (48:06)
Ha ha

Heath Holland (48:06)
there's just a difference. And so understanding that as a first responder, your, your stress threshold is going to change your just basic, like how you approach the world kind of shifts just a little bit. Finding that common ground with your spouse and saying, Hey,

I'm seeing it this way because of what I've dealt with and you're seeing it this way and I know that's where you're coming from. Let's find that middle spot. think, you know, I would, I would really like it if you took a breath just a little bit and let me handle this and I will try and show a little more concern and gusto about getting this arm wrapped up, you know, and finding that common ground.

Alex (48:42)
Yeah.

Yeah. That's great. I love that. Well thank you for coming on and talking about marriage and all the things. I wanna give we've had a couple conversations about resources and things. So if you wanna share where can people find you and if they wanna get in contact maybe for some mental health or things like that.

Heath Holland (49:04)
Yeah, absolutely. There are so many resources out there nowadays that you can Google. mean, shoot, if you you type in first responder mental health provider, try and look for somebody that does have experience. I'm not saying they have to go be a firefighter. I'm I'm weird in that way. But somebody

Alex (49:23)
Mm-hmm.

Heath Holland (49:23)
that is vetted or has had the opportunity to work with vets and first responders and has an understanding of PTSD, some people just like like to go, hey, I know how to work with first responders, but then

they'll cry if I tell you about this call I ran last week, you know? And nobody wants to feel like they're making their therapist like so upset that they can't function. That's an easy way to shut down a firefighter. Yeah, now the therapist needs a therapist and it's my fault because I told him this horrible thing.

Alex (49:44)
Now the therapist needs another therapist, yeah.

Heath Holland (49:51)
But me personally, I work for a company called Finding Freedom Therapy in the DFW area. And you can search that online, findingfreedomtherapy.com and

all our providers are on there. You can reach out to me, can reach out to anybody in our practice. We are more specifically trauma focused. And so a lot of the folks that I'm seeing are coming in with more acute traumas or situations that we can work with and then refer to a more long-term counselor. But that is how you get in touch with me.

Alex (50:21)
And Heath is also a great place for resources for other he knows other counselors and therapists out there as well. So yeah, if y'all ever need to reach out, there you go. So thank you for coming on. Absolutely, good to see

Heath Holland (50:33)
Absolutely. Thanks for having me. I appreciate it. It's good to see you.